2023 List Management

[Auntie.Gerald]

Jayden is definitely one of those players where his stats leading into the draft had him potentially likened to Will Hayward in ability, role and goal scoring.

I mean two x bags of four goals for the SA under 18s was super impressive at the time but then in his next game started well against the Allies kicked two goals before a serious ankle injury ruled him out for months after.

Came back had 40 something disposals vs Glenelg locally who ended up winning the local comp.

An enigma wrapped up in a mystery on why (despite absent for a few months in his final year) he dropped so far down into the rookie draft.

Like 31st ?

This season in a couple games I tried to focus on him a little…..I can see the natural talent and ease with the ball but a lack of urgency and might his GPS monitoring data say.

I was surprised Magor stayed and HHK moved on but maybe they feel Magor has more role flexibility either end of the ground and or pathways to Snrs? Which we have seen a little of in ressies.

Or maybe ?

Any thoughts ?

[Auntie.Gerald]

Are the last two interstate rookie success stories?

Hamish McLean 2019 debut and
Paps 2016 debut

If so geese we have been fairly barren in turning interstate rookies into Snr players the last 8 seasons.

Two only that currently feature in our squad?

Two only really surprises me over the last 8 seasons.

[lwjoyner]

I am learning towards Murphy (hopefuly) with first adn George Stephens with our second Pick. Seems to me we should future proof our mids. Like what I reas about him. Cleary with 3rd

[liz]

Are the last two interstate rookie success stories?

Hamish McLean 2019 debut and
Paps 2016 debut

If so geese we have been fairly barren in turning interstate rookies into Snr players the last 8 seasons.

Two only that currently feature in our squad?

Two only really surprises me over the last 8 seasons.

Plus Fox. Plus Amartey. Plus Melican.

[giant]

I get and tend to agree with most of what you're saying, with one little nuance.

With the injuries and thin cover we had inside this year, I think Chad suffered from sides being super conscious of cramping his exits, but that was exaggerated by also having to play a fraction too inside. A bit like Errol, you ideally want him one step removed from the true inner circle of play so he has some space to exploit his power and explosion. I'm not pretending for a minute he's going to float along a wing, but he shouldn't have his head at the bottom of contests all day either.

Ideally, your concentric circles would be roughly Adams, Mills, Rowie and then a mix of Gus as he comes along and Parker at times when he's not playing forward; then Chad, Errol, and when they're plaing on ball Paps and Heeney; then JMac, Campbell, and any high half forwards or defenders one further out. Of course blokes will mix and match on occasions depending on injuries, match ups, game needs, etc (and Errol will inevitably play the 'wherever you think, Errol' position - but you get the idea.

And I reckon it'd help get Chad back to his elite best. I thought he had a very good year, but there's no reason in the right set up he can't replicate his form of the second half of 2022.

Beautifully summarised. Agree entirely, especially your comments about the 2022/23/24 versions of the Chad.

It does feel like Gus, Roberts and Cleary may be our great white midfield hopes from outside the first 22 - I've seen enough of the first two to reckon both can be at least solid AFL players if they get a decent run with injuries. Unfortunately, it's not clear to me that much else sits behind this in the squad nws significant draft investments over the last couple of years.

I wasn't initially enamoured of the Adams' acquisition, but have grown to love it. Best case scenario I guess is that he's being kept out of the side by the outstanding form of Gus and/or Matt, but either way he appears a canny bet.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Thanks Liz
massive over sight by me .........again.....and I suppose we should add Wicks and Paddy Mac since 2016 also.

So 7 "rookie drafted" in total over the last 8 years have contributed significantly to Snrs (one might say)...... of which 5 out of the 7 were from interstate.

That is approx 25% of arguably our best 28 players - a significant pathway to Snrs.

So our average is basically one "rookie drafted player" every season comes off via a Rookie / mid season pathway into contributing significantly to Snrs.

This could blow out if the current "Rookie recruited" batch that are not playing Snrs jump ahead next season or two - McAndrew, Edwards, Arnold, Buller and or Magor

[wolftone57]

Warner Jnr and Roberts come to mind and maybe some others that could be worth a try. My point is that we know Wick’s upside as he’s played 50 games now. There don’t seem to be any other spots in the team unless you’re a competent KPD, so Wicks is vulnerable. We need better to help make top 4- too many brain farts for mine.

Magor is also a sneaky forward that actually played half back last year. Was that to develop his defensive game? The problem with that is if a player is a really prolific goal kicker because of their attacking mind set making them more defensive might actually ruin their ability to kick goals. This I believe has happened to Will. He became far too defensive, he is not the most natural tackler but throws himself around like a cork in the ocean. So much of his energy is being spent on defensive pressure is wasted because he is manic. If his energy was better directed by using learned better defensive targeting then he might have some energy to kick more goals. Konstanty played a couple of really good matches inbetween injury bouts. Needs to get his body right next year.

I am not sure about the reserves coaching. Sometimes the game looks so good and at other times we look very disjointed. Is the message getting through to the group? I know Damien had a great deal of difficulty due to injuries but this is a development squad & the idea is to develop their skills & game awareness. I am not sure that was achieved last season. I see few players in the AFL Squad that are actually crying out for selection. One who was we delisted, Hall-Kahan. Vickery, Magor (I think due to playing HB), Mitchell, Konstanty (mainly due to injury but even when not injured he was inconsistent), Edwards, Buller (he has the skill set to be a very good player but I am not sure he is played to advantage). The rest we have delisted. I thought Rankin had a really good year the year before but this year inconsistent. I thought players looked unsure of their roles in the team. Some matches we had a good squad but got slaughtered. The next game we won by miles. This inconsistency is not good because it reeks of mixed messaging or players not understanding their role. So, I worry about player development next year as well.

I am hoping we can develop the next players to come in and to continue to develop those who are there. But I am skeptical in the least. These players need to be ready, at least 10 of them to step into senior roles for us to win a premiership. Until we can achieve that then we might make finals but struggle. Even making finals is not easy if the players below the top rung are not ready and we get heaps of injuries. I think that is what happened to the guys who came in when we had injuries this year. the added depth of experience should help but the man in charge needs to be better.

[wolftone57]

Well that is certainly the highest I think I've seen him.

Cal Twomey has certainly been suggesting there's some love around the joint for him and a mid-20s pick could be on the cards, and he's as tuned in as anyone.

But there's a lot of draft boards having him in the 40s. I guess it's a bit of a thing - do you focus on what he does really well, which is sweep up an absolute bucket of ground and contested balls and run all day, or focus on what he lacks, which is a bit of athleticism and hurt factor. I have to admit I went into the u18s carnival a bit more in the second camp, but watching what he does well and how consistently he played, probably fell into the first camp as I reckon there is a truism in watching juniors: if they can win contests and the ball, you can teach them other things; if they can't win contests and the ball, they ain't gonna get very far at all.

I do think he'll have a challenge in his first couple of years if he plays seniors, which is that he's unlikely to start right inside; so can he contribute enough otherwise. Errol had the nous and running and kicking skills to do so, Campbell had the kick and speed to play down back while he developed his tank and game. Cleary will require some patience, but I suspect he'll be worth it. And I reckon he'll benefit immensely from having Taylor Adams at the club to teach him a bit, as I don't think the fundamentals of their game are that different (although Adams at his peak was a high-end talent).

From what I have seen of him, on stream, he has the ability to get the ball out & link up. Two of the best traits of an inside mid. His delivery is really good and he makes very good decisions. If something goes wrong he follows up & is really hard at it. I think that is why Cleary has gone up in the rankings

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn’t put too much credence on what comes out of the ABC. Most pundits have Cleary as a late second rounder at best, and most probably a third rounder. If a club selected him at pick 19 there is a strong chance the Swans would pass.

I doubt we would pass. Even at 19. He is highly ranked and in the top 5 of the Allies last season.

[wolftone57]

Does Wicks earning another two years in a specialist role of pressure small forward indicate his trajectory of improvement and or value for money is what our coaches want in the squad?

Or does it mean our no1 draft pick Konstanty, as a small pressure forward is at least another season away from what is required in that role so Wicks in insurance for 2024 as a minimum?

Or does it mean that there is room for Wicks, Konstanty and Paps roaming through the forward line because we will see both Paps and Errol playing more and more minutes through the midfield?

Or ?

According to stats Wicks' year last year was as good as his 2021.

[i'm-uninformed2]

From what I have seen of him, on stream, he has the ability to get the ball out & link up. Two of the best traits of an inside mid. His delivery is really good and he makes very good decisions. If something goes wrong he follows up & is really hard at it. I think that is why Cleary has gone up in the rankings

I came around on Cleary’s kicking too, in that he’s not elite and ain’t going to be either an Errol in slicing teams to bit, or even a Chad with his ability to roost it.

But Cleary does seem to know his limits very well and judge his kicks accordingly. A bit like Lloyd, who’s not lethal - but there’s plenty of times in a game where a sound 30-40m kick is all you need. I didn’t form enough of a view of his ability to do those under real pressure, but on balance he looked more dependable than some of the reports. I get he lacks real hurt factor with his kicking, but I wouldn’t call it wobbly either.

[wolftone57]

I hear u LWJ but this kid is a very important player to pick up this draft. But if we can have our cake and eat it too........ie get what we want with pick "12" and then secure CC next well that is a bloody good draft and trade period IMO - unless we pick a 2 foot tall lock down defender with our first pick lol

Just a few thoughts below:

I feel we are still not stacked well enough with our midfield to leave him high and dry..........the mids need to be stacked year after year due to injuries, go home factors, and driving peak performance amongst our mids and team

walking past a mid like Cleary (if he went early) who has performed very well in the nationals doesnt have enough upside to the strategy IMHO. Parker is 32yrs old next year. Sheldrick and Roberts have a lot to prove hence Adams joining for 2024.

I dont think CC will be picked before our pick "12" but he could anywhere after up to mid 40s.......it is a mystery that not even Liz or Ludwig have solved as yet lol (who i believe are secretly the same person but two personalities a wicked sense of humour)

If the Chad can play a role that had less license (run with with mainly) leading into the draft for WA .......... and then leap frog the next two pre seasons at the Swans with grit and building his take off speed.........I see very similar qualities in CC. CC also can run way faster over the 2kms vs Chads Combine stats........plus trained a stack with our lads and played ressies already.

CC........"earning All Australian selection for his consistent national carnival with the Allies. There, he averaged 29 touches, four clearances, and seven tackles."

Caiden Cleary Draft Profile - Aussie Rules Rookie Me Central (formerly AFL Draft Central)

Caiden Cleary could be Sydney's next ball magnet | 2023 AFL Draft prospect highlights - YouTube yesterday upload by AFL on Cleary

QBE Academy: Cleary, McVeigh named All-Australians

Caiden Cleary - U18 Champs (Allies v VM) - YouTube

i think it is fair to say after reading the below article "he did make every post a winner in 2023" and yes equally acknowledging it would be definitely easier to focus solely on AFL after squaring away the HSC as a young one for his year in 2022.

https://aflnswact.com.au/caiden-cleary-on-a-big-2022/

Who other than Cleary has beaten all comers in the U17 Futures Game on GF Day? Errol Gulden that's who. In fact both Errol & Braydon starred that day

[wolftone57]

seems to me if cleary uses an erly pick we should pass. We have sheldrake wevy similar.

Over the Allies games in the Championships he averaged 29 disposals, 4 clearances & 7 tackles. Better than Reid.

[wolftone57]

Im not being disagreeable.............. I just have a different time frame maybe to some of the lofty expectations of Gus in 2024.......I love little Gus but there are a few layers here to pull apart.

Adams covers immediate needs and was obviously identified as a critical piece of the contested footy puzzle to be solved in 2024 minimum. Also we should be and are in the hunt in 2024.........great addition to leapfrog other mid options.

Gus and or Roberts may cover some or part of the short term............... but not like what is expected of Parker, Adams, Mills and probably now Chad as the main contested mids.

We want the best with the ball in their hand most of the time making great decisions most of the time. Links in the chain ladies and gents "links in the chain" shall never be broken unless with great predictability !

Gus, Roberts and CCleary at this stage are likely to gradually over from Parker and Adams as Mills started to do 6 or so seasons later..........but no fear.......... if good enough, every single week........... you get more minutes.

Now that Adams comes in I can see Parker spending more time forward. We did it a couple of times last & in game 1 of the 2022 season. With great results in the GWS game, 5 goals I think. Then 2 goals in each of the others. He can be a match winner forward because he is so hard to play on. He can out-mark a KPD. but then at ground level he is so dangerous. He kicks goals from outside 50 & can kick from any angle. Barney Mathews played a forward role in his later years and kicked 100. I think Luke could kick 40 or 50. This frees up Adams, Sheldrick, Roberts etc to play just mids. Maybe Wicks will have to battle Parker for a game & become a bit player, playing on certain targets. Maybe more 23 man. I hope they get rid of the sub, it is @@@@e. Either go back to 22 or just make a 23rd player.

[0918330512]

Over the Allies games in the Championships he averaged 29 disposals, 4 clearances & 7 tackles. Better than Reid.

If Reid played in that game, fair chance his stats would be more impressive if he’s full fit. Silly comparison.

Plus both will be on the list

[wolftone57]

Jayden is definitely one of those players where his stats leading into the draft had him potentially likened to Will Hayward in ability, role and goal scoring.

I mean two x bags of four goals for the SA under 18s was super impressive at the time but then in his next game started well against the Allies kicked two goals before a serious ankle injury ruled him out for months after.

Came back had 40 something disposals vs Glenelg locally who ended up winning the local comp.

An enigma wrapped up in a mystery on why (despite absent for a few months in his final year) he dropped so far down into the rookie draft.

Like 31st ?

This season in a couple games I tried to focus on him a little…..I can see the natural talent and ease with the ball but a lack of urgency and might his GPS monitoring data say.

I was surprised Magor stayed and HHK moved on but maybe they feel Magor has more role flexibility either end of the ground and or pathways to Snrs? Which we have seen a little of in ressies.

Or maybe ?

Any thoughts ?

I think they see far more talent in Magor. I thought, like you, that Hall-Kahan was really good last year and was close to seniors, on the emergency list many times. But they moved him on. That was probably the biggest surprise of all. Magor was very good down back but that isn't where I want to see him. He is a natural goal kicker & with Konstanty a big ?????? due to his body he might just become very useful. As for a replacement for Lloyd, we will have to replace Rampe, Fox, Cunningham & Lloyd soon enough. The Rampe replacement has been delisted. Not sure Edwards, Mitchell or Vickery are up to it. Fox is playing Nick Smith Plus. Maybe Magor could be a half back/back pocket. Maybe. mind you Arnold could be the wildcard here. He is hugely mobile, fast, makes good decisions and can lock down. Vickery was improving toward the end of the season.