2023 List Management

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  • BRS328
    Warming the Bench
    • Feb 2018
    • 356

    BRS328

    Originally posted by Thunder Shaker
    Tom De Koning was drafted with pick 30 in 2017. Tom De Koning (footywire.com)

    Games: 2018:2, 2019:none, 2020:7, 2021:13, 2022:19, 2023:8. Total:49. Tom De Koning (afltables.com) Carlton has played 118 games in that time.

    Is he really worth $800K? IMO, no.

    I wouldn’t read to much into the $800K talk. It may well be the number for the first season, but a lot less over the 7 years. Clubs play games with this. If you recall Carlton paid Jack Martin $1 million for his first season when he came from the Gold Coast. What this does is insure the club losing the player gets an early round draft pick as compensation.

    For the record Martin has proved to be a waste of money given he was at the time, and still is, injury prone. TDK on the other hand may be well worth the risk given his age and undoubted talent, provided, as I suspect, the salary long term will be more in line with reasonable expectations.

    Comment

    • Auntie.Gerald
      Veterans List
      • Oct 2009
      • 6480

      BRS
      I tend agree re TDK and the $ sensationalising in the media

      Tom De Koning - AFL Season 2022 Highlights - YouTube

      The kid has massive upside and has been through the typical ups and downs of a super tall young fella easing into Snrs

      He is about to start making his presence felt and could definitely help us be a better team.

      If we sense we have our backline all covered and or we have our eyes on another trade but a value trade $ for our backline then TDK makes a lot of sense given he can play forward when needed but could be a very dominant Ruckman

      Hmmmmm I don’t know where I stand with TDK - I just haven’t thought it through enough or watch him super close but on the surface I can see why he would be very attractive to the Swans at the right price and right trade

      Maybe we do have a player in our squad who really wants to get back to Melbourne?

      Maybe there are compromising factors we don’t know about as yet? That could nurture a good outcome for Carlton and the Swans vs the an unpalatable alternative ?

      Or maybe it is just noise selling media eyeballs?

      ????
      "be tough, only when it gets tough"

      Comment

      • Auntie.Gerald
        Veterans List
        • Oct 2009
        • 6480

        Just wondering if anyone else has noticed the injury list for the Pies this season?

        Some fairly serious players in amongst that list and just as costly as our injury list ie 7 snt best 22 players missing for both teams

        I wonder how the Pies have continued to function so effectively and win 11 games vs our 5 wins?

        Is our list not deep as some believe it to be?

        Did they Pies make sure leading into this season with their mix of trades and draft picks that they had a much deeper list?

        Is there some learnings right here for our mix of talent acquisition and deeper list for 2024?

        Charlie Dean Foot Season
        Jamie Elliott Shoulder Test
        Will Hoskin-Elliott Ankle Test
        Jeremy Howe Forearm TBC
        Nathan Kreuger Ankle TBC
        Patrick Lipinski Shoulder Test
        Beau McCreery Ankle TBC
        Dan McStay Finger Test
        Joe Richards Hamstring Test
        Steele Sidebottom Knee 3-5 weeks

        Nick Blakey Toe Test
        Peter Ladhams Ankle TBC
        Paddy McCartin Concussion Season
        Tom McCartin Concussion TBC
        Logan McDonald Ankle 3-5 weeks
        Callum Mills Calf 1-2 weeks
        Sam Reid Hamstring Season
        Matt Roberts Knee 2-4 weeks
        Marc Sheather Foot Season
        "be tough, only when it gets tough"

        Comment

        • Jimitron5000
          Warming the Bench
          • Oct 2006
          • 455

          I hadn't looked at that, but I think the main difference is the majority of our injured players were what I will call structural (ie key position players and rucks) and this has a much bigger impact than injuries to other types of player, such as half forward flankers and forward pockets.
          It's a real issue if it's all players, like West Coast.

          Comment

          • Auntie.Gerald
            Veterans List
            • Oct 2009
            • 6480

            agree Jimi you need to weight these roles that are missing

            BUT........is it 11 wins vs 5 wins that really would be the difference given we are halfway through the season?

            would 11 wins vs 8 wins be fairer effort by us if the Pies can achieve 11 wins under adversity similar?

            hmmm......a little bit to ponder........

            i think the Pies squad has been up and about to achieve 11 wins with serious players missing.........a deep list or an over achieve?

            i mean 7 players missing against Melbourne and they loose by 4 pts .......... that is an amazing effort

            Melbournes defence is so bloody hard to break down and they counter super quick which is a nightmare

            great effort and maybe i have underestimated our list somewhat and we are not as deep as i thought leading into the finals of 2022??

            and I wonder why?
            "be tough, only when it gets tough"

            Comment

            • liz
              Veteran
              Site Admin
              • Jan 2003
              • 16778

              a) You need to look at injuries across the season, not just at a point in time. Some of the players on that list have been available for almost all the first half of the season. Like Sidebottom. And Elliott.

              b) You need to be careful with making assessments based on AFL injury lists at a midweek point in time because they include players who may play the following week. For example, Lipinski is on the list you quoted but he played yesterday.

              c) Yes, Collingwood have experienced a "healthy" injury toll this season. Notwithstanding my observation in b) above, Cameron missed a big chunk of the season and for a few weeks they were also without Cox. The first week they were without both, they lost.

              d) Yes, Collingwood have an older, more experienced, deeper squad than us.

              e) The scoreboard says they lost yesterday by 4pts but it should have been by a whole lot more had Melbourne kicked straight.

              f) Take Moore out of the Collingwood team and I wonder how they'd be going. Yes, Moore is a better player than either Tom McCartin or Dane Rampe but he kind of does on his own what Rampe and McCartin do for us - plays on the best key forward (some of the time, and can switch onto them when needed) and organises their defence. He's probably their most important player, not just for what he does directly but because he allows Daicos and others to run and gun in the way they do.

              Just over a month ago, someone compared our injury list to Geelongs, and noted that Geelong were missing more players than we were. It was a valid observation. Geelong then proceeded to lose the next three games.
              Last edited by liz; 13 June 2023, 04:19 PM. Reason: Formatting

              Comment

              • i'm-uninformed2
                Reefer Madness
                • Oct 2003
                • 4653

                Originally posted by liz
                a) You need to look at injuries across the season, not just at a point in time. Some of the players on that list have been available for almost all the first half of the season. Like Sidebottom. And Elliott.
                b) You need to be careful with making assessments based on AFL injury lists at a midweek point in time because they include players who may play the following week. For example, Lipinski is on the list you quoted but he played yesterday.
                c) Yes, Collingwood have experienced a "healthy" injury toll this season. Notwithstanding my observation in b) above, Cameron missed a big chunk of the season and for a few weeks they were also without Cox. The first week they were without both, they lost.
                d) Yes, Collingwood have an older, more experienced, deeper squad than us.
                e) The scoreboard says they lost yesterday by 4pts but it should have been by a whole lot more had Melbourne kicked straight.
                f) Take Moore out of the Collingwood team and I wonder how they'd be going. Yes, Moore is a better player than either Tom McCartin or Dane Rampe but he kind of does on his own what Rampe and McCartin do for us - plays on the best key forward (some of the time, and can switch onto them when needed) and organises their defence. He's probably their most important player, not just for what he does directly but because he allows Daicos and others to run and gun in the way they do.

                Just over a month ago, someone compared our injury list to Geelongs, and noted that Geelong were missing more players than we were. It was a valid observation. Geelong then proceeded to lose the next three games.
                Collingwood are enjoying a sweet spot with their list.

                Their oldest players - Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Cox etc - are enjoying Indian summers the way Bud, Ramps, Hickey and even JPK did in 2021. Players that had extensive history of injury like Elliott and Moore have been able to get on the park.

                Their mid aged players have peaked, and they've got some exciting youngsters - though bar Daicos, not truly elite.

                Whereas we're largely at base camp with our list, with a few mid-aged players like Mills, Paps and Heeney not at their best this year due to injury - and older players fading off (Parker being the exception here).

                But I do think our batch of 23 and unders are superb, and if they stay together will see us bounce back quickly, when coupled with some smart recruitment and Paps, Heeney and Mills still having a good five years.
                Last edited by i'm-uninformed2; 13 June 2023, 04:11 PM.
                'Delicious' is a fun word to say

                Comment

                • Ludwig
                  Veterans List
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 9359

                  As liz noted, Darcy Moore is the best key defender in the league. The Pies also have a pretty good #2 KPD in Nathan Murphy. The Swans, on the other hand, had their entire key defence gone in 1 game, without any competent backup.

                  The Pies have been playing a mixed forward line for years, with Brody Mihocek thge one constant kPF. One key forward is very playable, as Richmond showed in 2017 when they won the premiership. We've been Buddy focused up forward for 10 years. And this year we lost our top 2 next generation key forwards.

                  Collingwood added a lot of depth to their list in the off season, while we went back to the draft.

                  Drafting Arnold and Buller has put us on the right track to remedy a bad situation. With one or two good recruits post season, we could be back in the mix next year. We will have to get lucky though if we want to fill the void left by the loss of the McCartin brothers.

                  Comment

                  • Kafka's Ghost
                    Regular in the Side
                    • Sep 2017
                    • 904

                    Originally posted by Auntie.Gerald
                    agree Jimi you need to weight these roles that are missing

                    BUT........is it 11 wins vs 5 wins that really would be the difference given we are halfway through the season?

                    would 11 wins vs 8 wins be fairer effort by us if the Pies can achieve 11 wins under adversity similar?

                    hmmm......a little bit to ponder........

                    i think the Pies squad has been up and about to achieve 11 wins with serious players missing.........a deep list or an over achieve?

                    i mean 7 players missing against Melbourne and they loose by 4 pts .......... that is an amazing effort

                    Melbournes defence is so bloody hard to break down and they counter super quick which is a nightmare

                    great effort and maybe i have underestimated our list somewhat and we are not as deep as i thought leading into the finals of 2022??

                    and I wonder why?
                    Melbourne dominated that game. The only thing keeping the Magpies in it was the shoddy goal kicking. Shoddy is actually something of an understatement. 8:18, with many of those set shots, is diabolical, and many other teams would have lost with that sort of conversion.


                    Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk

                    Comment

                    • Thunder Shaker
                      Aut vincere aut mori
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 4205

                      Originally posted by Kafka's Ghost
                      Melbourne dominated that game. The only thing keeping the Magpies in it was the shoddy goal kicking. Shoddy is actually something of an understatement. 8:18, with many of those set shots, is diabolical, and many other teams would have lost with that sort of conversion.
                      Like Carlton. 6.16, more scoring shots than Essendon 13.8 and lost by 34. (This equalled their record for biggest losses with more scoring shots. Their previous 34-point losses with more scoring shots were against Hawthorn in 1945 and Essendon in 1931.)
                      "Unbelievable!" -- Nick Davis leaves his mark on the 2005 semi final

                      Comment

                      • Ruck'n'Roll
                        Ego alta, ergo ictus
                        • Nov 2003
                        • 3990

                        There's be a lot of hype about Arnold and Buller, I've only seen one game so I've not formed an opinion yet - but jeez if both make it then the Swans 2023 Mid Season draft will go down as possible the greatest recruitment coup of all time.

                        Comment

                        • Blood Fever
                          Veterans List
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 4050

                          Let's wait to see if they play seniors first.

                          Comment

                          • Auntie.Gerald
                            Veterans List
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 6480

                            Some good pints Liz to weigh up all the data

                            Something I did forget was that we had a full team the Dees earlier this year less Hickey and we lost by 50pts

                            Pies had approx 7 best 22 players out and lost by 4 pts

                            Yes Melbourne kicked terribly but partly where the Pies shaped them to kick from

                            But either way……. It’s fair data to take into account when comparing two teams who were neck and neck into the finals last year and how they recruited in the off season…….and how they are delivering in 2023

                            Or not delivering
                            "be tough, only when it gets tough"

                            Comment

                            • Markwebbos
                              Veterans List
                              • Jul 2016
                              • 7186

                              Originally posted by Auntie.Gerald
                              Some good pints Liz to weigh up all the data

                              Something I did forget was that we had a full team the Dees earlier this year less Hickey and we lost by 50pts

                              Pies had approx 7 best 22 players out and lost by 4 pts

                              Yes Melbourne kicked terribly but partly where the Pies shaped them to kick from

                              But either way……. It’s fair data to take into account when comparing two teams who were neck and neck into the finals last year and how they recruited in the off season…….and how they are delivering in 2023

                              Or not delivering
                              AG you seem to be inferring that if we’d just traded in more players at the end of 2023 we’d be a top-4 side this year. I think that’s a gross oversimplification.

                              And id live to know who we should have grabbed that we didn’t?

                              Comment

                              • troyjones2525
                                Swans Fanatic!
                                • Mar 2008
                                • 2908

                                I fear that we will foolishly trade away our first round pick (or trade further back) in a supposedly very strong draft for key position players.

                                At this early stage, a player like O'Sullivan looks like he'd be a great selection for us! He's a versatile 198cm player from NSW and is a Swans supporter too!

                                He'd be a great pick for our current list demographic!

                                Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

                                Comment

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