2023 List Management

[liz]

We have a "report post" function. If people think they have been "shot down with personal attacks" they should use that report post function.

It may be that a moderator hasn't seen the post. (I can't speak for the other moderators but I never read the comments made on game threads while a game is going on - I'm too busy watching the game.) Or they don't see it as a personal attack but might be persuaded by someone reporting it. Or they think there are so many posts straying close to the line, in both directions, that to remove them would completely gut a thread.

Use the report post function.

[Blood Fever]

Looking like we'll be holding a strong draft hand given our form and the Hawks form.

I'm concerned the correct call wasn't made at Pick 18 two drafts ago, we took Sheldrick who must now be given an extended run in the seniors with CBAs to see what he offers. Van Rooyen at pick 19 hurts.

Shelter turned 19 late last year. Too early to judge. He has also had injuries.

[Thunder Shaker]

Looking like we'll be holding a strong draft hand given our form and the Hawks form.

I refer to this resource: Lore's Provisional 2023 AFL Draft Picks

Having three early picks (including the coveted pick 19 if Hawthorn finish last) would only be of use if we use them properly. Going to the draft is of limited use if players we draft keep seeking trades elsewhere. We need to be more aggressive at the trade table this year to get some players coming to us for a change.

We are in dire need of some key defenders. Who could we be targeting?

Possibilities:
* Grainger-Barras (Hawthorn) and Ratugolea (Geelong) Inside Trading 4/5/23
* Himmelberg (GWS Giants) multiple sources.

Are there other tall defenders that we have been linked to or that may be available?

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Respect your opinion on this R&R. I should resist temptation and not post on occasions. Don't you ever get exasperated by constant negative comments though?

Nobody wants too much negativity but the moment someone vents frustrations they are attacked which is just wrong. Also nothing wrong with venting on here during or after a loss.

I get exactly as frustrated by the Catastophizers as I do by the Polyanna's - and on occasions posts by me have been Catastophizish and on others Polyanna-ish.

Have been on this board for almost 20 years but it’s been hijacked of late. Any opinion that’s negative on the club is shot down with personal attacks or their post labeled ‘embarrassing’ ‘farcical’ etc.

It might have increased more recently, but it's not a new phenomena as I remember the "not a proper fan" being lobbed about more than a decade ago - it just might be a reflection of the social media tendancy.
As a kid I got told "if you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything." - social mecdia seems to be the opposite "if can't disagree with someone or prove them wrong there's no impetus to post at all"

Enough sermonising, this is the List Management thread, so

On our 1st round picks: While I am not ready to label Konstanty, Sheldrick, Stephens (and maybe even not even Ling) as bad picks. I was surprised to see first round picks used on Goal sneaks, short-slow-midfielders, wingmen or half back flankers - who you would think one might search for with later (or even rookie) picks.
On Buddy: While there are RWOers that are still justifying his place in the team, I fear that like Lockett, someone needs to give him the tap on the shoulder. Play him as the Sub, give him a chance to expend whatever magic he has in short bursts and then bid him farewell. He may or may not become a great coach, but adding him to the coaching panel immediately he retires sounds a bit too Voss/Hird to me.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Are there other tall defenders that we have been linked to or that may be available?

The need for a key defender suitable to deal with all the giant full forwards has been evident for years, the loss of 1 (or god help us) 2 McCartins on top of that pre-existing need would be a calamity.
Jack Buckley is local. He might be a reasonable planB if we can't get HH to play CHB for the Swans.

- - - Updated - - -

Ooopsy, I see Jack signed a multi year deal with the Giants a couple of days ago. So we'd better get HH.

[Maltopia]

On our 1st round picks: While I am not ready to label Konstanty, Sheldrick, Stephens (and maybe even not even Ling) as bad picks. I was surprised to see first round picks used on Goal sneaks, short-slow-midfielders, wingmen or half back flankers - who you would think one might search for with later (or even rookie) picks.
On Buddy: While there are RWOers that are still justifying his place in the team, I fear that like Lockett, someone needs to give him the tap on the shoulder. Play him as the Sub, give him a chance to expend whatever magic he has in short bursts and then bid him farewell. He may or may not become a great coach, but adding him to the coaching panel immediately he retires sounds a bit too Voss/Hird to me.

I have been saying similar. Talls take longer to develop and good ones cost a lot more to trade in, so it is just surprising and frustrating that we have not drafted more talls with early picks when given the chance.

Florent was taken over Berry, Powell-Pepper and Tim English
Ling was taken over Oscar Allen
Sheldrick over JVR

Ling is a 'pass' in that we don't know what he might have become without the injury, but I note Zac Bailey and Jack Higgins were taken in the next two picks and they would be first 22 in our team. We also have the Stephens/Serrong miss.

Some of our second round and third round picks have been very good with Tom McCartin, McInerney, Gulden, Aliir Aliir,, Nankervis and Cameron in recent years, but our first round drafting leaves much to be desired.

If we aren't drafting a super talent or an Academy star, maybe we should trade out our first round pick for two second round picks. Less can go wrong and we seem to be pretty decent there.

With regards to Gould and Frances in defence, perhaps the coaching staff are hoping for a Ted Richards like revelation given sufficient time and opportunity, however the key forwards of this generation are taller, more mobile and skilled than those Richards and Grundy competed with every week.

[troyjones2525]

Great post!

Nobody wants too much negativity but the moment someone vents frustrations they are attacked which is just wrong. Also nothing wrong with venting on here during or after a loss.

Have been on this board for almost 20 years but it’s been hijacked of late. Any opinion that’s negative on the club is shot down with personal attacks or their post labeled ‘embarrassing’ ‘farcical’ etc.

Spot on!

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[troyjones2525]

Can anyone throw up any KPP that are running around in the state leagues that we may consider in the mid season draft?

There has been a few successes in that draft for KPP as we all know they take longer to develop and some AFL teams delist before they actually flourish.

Hopefully we can come across one or two!

Sent from my SM-F936B using Tapatalk

[AppleCore]

so it is just surprising and frustrating that we have not drafted more talls with early picks when given the chance

I am not surprised by this outcome, although I don't agree with the thinking that has produced it.
To the best of my memory, KB has always said that they recruit the players they deem the most talented and they don't recruit with a view to filling particular positions (with the exception of ruckmen).
I can see some logic in this approach given that it must often be difficult to predict what position a recruit is ultimately going to be best suited for, nevertheless it is, for example, pretty obvious that 6-footers are never going to make KPPs.

[Thunder Shaker]

The need for a key defender suitable to deal with all the giant full forwards has been evident for years, the loss of 1 (or god help us) 2 McCartins on top of that pre-existing need would be a calamity.
Jack Buckley is local. He might be a reasonable planB if we can't get HH to play CHB for the Swans.

- - - Updated - - -

Ooopsy, I see Jack signed a multi year deal with the Giants a couple of days ago. So we'd better get HH.

My views of the players I mentioned:

Grainger-Barras: I was looking at him closely (as was everyone else here prior to the draft) when the speculation was that we would be drafting him. His draft video was interesting - it included some remarks from McDonald about how DGB played very well on him in a game. I suspect DGB and LMcD may get along well if they were in the same team because both are from WA and they know each other.

Ratugolea: Would be a chance if he wanted to play elsewhere, but Geelong's infamous salary sombrero makes it really hard to prise players away from Geelong. West Coast managed to do it, but it cost them three first-round draft picks.

Harry Himmelberg: The most likely scenario that I can imagine is if GWS is looking to gain some cap space, we have some spare, and HH is comfortable remaining in Sydney. A lot needs to go right but it's not impossible.

Another hole we need to fill is an inside midfielder. JPK's retirement left a big gap to fill and we've been feeling his absence this year. Mills' injury yesterday has left us exposed there.

[Roadrunner]

I am not surprised by this outcome, although I don't agree with the thinking that has produced it.
To the best of my memory, KB has always said that they recruit the players they deem the most talented and they don't recruit with a view to filling particular positions (with the exception of ruckmen).
I can see some logic in this approach given that it must often be difficult to predict what position a recruit is ultimately going to be best suited for, nevertheless it is, for example, pretty obvious that 6-footers are never going to make KPPs.

I really don’t understand our recruiters logic. A team needs a minimum 4 KPP’s for the spine and an additional 2-3 to cover the inevitable injuries. In addition you need 2+2 rucks. These players take much longer to develop- look at Logan, for example- he is far from a good KPP at this stage. Therefore it makes no sense for several drafts to keep taking who they think is the best available without looking at what the team actually needs.

This is not good list management imho. The recruiters have been very good in the past but maybe we need a bit of new blood in there as our list is unbalanced at the moment, even if we discount our injuries.

Logan is still only potential, as is Amartey and we don’t have any cover. Buddy is at the end of a fabulous career and we all knew that he was hanging up the boots either last year or this year. So where was the forward planning?

I’m talking 2-4 years ago.
Same with our backline- take Ramps and 1 Mcartin out and we’re like Swiss cheese. We have only 2 rucks ( 1 30 plus and now injury prone) plus 1 with potential yet to play a game. Not good enough in my book.

[liz]

and an additional 2-3 to cover the inevitable injuries.

But we have Grainger-Barras now being spoken of as a trade target because - in his third year and still skinny - he isn't an automatic start in Hawthorn's team, as if someone - especially a high draft pick - has an automatic right to play senior footy and/or hasn't come on as expected if he isn't.

It's really hard to develop and maintain quality depth, especially with taller players, including rucks. As soon as they - or the media - decides they are ready to play senior footy, they get itchy if there are other players ahead of them in the queue. We lost Cameron, Membrey, Nankervis all at a stage when they were barely on the cusp of being ready for regular senior football. There may have been other factors - money, go-home factor (for Membrey, or closer to home in the case of Nankervis) but I daresay there was a degree of impatience involved too. It took Membrey a season to become established in the Saints senior team, and Cameron wasn't really a regular until last season, suggesting they weren't being unfairly held back at the Swans. They just got itchy feet.

This isn't peculiar to the Swans. You could pick out examples from other clubs too.

And while it's most obvious for tall players, there are also cases of smaller players getting itchy feet when they don't get a game - and even more so, the media suggesting they should be getting itchy feet.

SEN published a piece a few days ago where they picked out a player at each club not getting a game and suggested they need to look elsewhere. The player at each AFL club who needs a change of scenery for greater opportunities

The names on the list are a mixed bag. Some are still quite new to the system but at a strong club (Finn Macrae, Deven Robertson, for example). Though in Robertson's case, I suspect he has limitations to his game that mean he wouldn't be a walk-up start at most of the 18 clubs.

Matt Crouch and Hugh Greenwood are more seasoned players, also with limitations to their games.

Interestingly, for the Swans they nominated Melican, suggesting that every club is on the lookout for a key defender without realising the irony that they Swans are crying out for a key defender right now and thus looking behind the name to work out why Melican isn't currently playing in our senior team (and hasn't played since 2021). The Swans made it known last trade period that Melican was available to any club who wanted him but none came knocking. Maybe they did what this journalist didn't and looked at his injury history.

I do expect Melican to be back in the Swans' senior team within a week or two. Whether he can last the season without getting injured again is anyone's guess.

But I also know that as soon as he is named, several on here will audibly groan (as they did whenever Bell, or Ronke, or Taylor was picked last year) and decry them getting senior games. Yet those kinds of players are really the only kind of depth you can hold onto long term, while also having your list described as full of list-cloggers.

The only time most teams' depth looks good is when it is playing at state league level, not required for senior footy.

[Nico]

Watching Adelaide today I noticed that they are strong bodied, tall across the field and quick. Right now we are mosquito fleet. I think we should get at least 3 tall defenders in the draft. Hopefully we go for a tall defender type in the mid season draft.

[The Big Cat]

But we have Grainger-Barras now being spoken of as a trade target because - in his third year and still skinny - he isn't an automatic start in Hawthorn's team, as if someone - especially a high draft pick - has an automatic right to play senior footy and/or hasn't come on as expected if he isn't.

It's really hard to develop and maintain quality depth, especially with taller players, including rucks. As soon as they - or the media - decides they are ready to play senior footy, they get itchy if there are other players ahead of them in the queue. We lost Cameron, Membrey, Nankervis all at a stage when they were barely on the cusp of being ready for regular senior football. There may have been other factors - money, go-home factor (for Membrey, or closer to home in the case of Nankervis) but I daresay there was a degree of impatience involved too. It took Membrey a season to become established in the Saints senior team, and Cameron wasn't really a regular until last season, suggesting they weren't being unfairly held back at the Swans. They just got itchy feet.

This isn't peculiar to the Swans. You could pick out examples from other clubs too.

And while it's most obvious for tall players, there are also cases of smaller players getting itchy feet when they don't get a game - and even more so, the media suggesting they should be getting itchy feet.

SEN published a piece a few days ago where they picked out a player at each club not getting a game and suggested they need to look elsewhere. The player at each AFL club who needs a change of scenery for greater opportunities

The names on the list are a mixed bag. Some are still quite new to the system but at a strong club (Finn Macrae, Deven Robertson, for example). Though in Robertson's case, I suspect he has limitations to his game that mean he wouldn't be a walk-up start at most of the 18 clubs.

Matt Crouch and Hugh Greenwood are more seasoned players, also with limitations to their games.

Interestingly, for the Swans they nominated Melican, suggesting that every club is on the lookout for a key defender without realising the irony that they Swans are crying out for a key defender right now and thus looking behind the name to work out why Melican isn't currently playing in our senior team (and hasn't played since 2021). The Swans made it known last trade period that Melican was available to any club who wanted him but none came knocking. Maybe they did what this journalist didn't and looked at his injury history.

I do expect Melican to be back in the Swans' senior team within a week or two. Whether he can last the season without getting injured again is anyone's guess.

But I also know that as soon as he is named, several on here will audibly groan (as they did whenever Bell, or Ronke, or Taylor was picked last year) and decry them getting senior games. Yet those kinds of players are really the only kind of depth you can hold onto long term, while also having your list described as full of list-cloggers.

The only time most teams' depth looks good is when it is playing at state league level, not required for senior footy.

Sensible analysis as usual Liz.

[The Big Cat]

Hopefully we go for a tall defender type in the mid season draft.

Problem is they’re as scarce as rocking horse dung. Even if we do nail someone they’ll need months of training to acquire the fitness to play senior footy at AFL level. Our hopes of finding a diamond in the rough like Geelong did with Stewart via Scarlett are remote at best.