2017 trading, drafting, list management

[barracuda]

All things being equal I hope that we look at drafting (main list or rookie list if it still exists) at least 2-3 academy kids given their performances to date in the U18 championships. I guess it will be how they man up on the Div 1 opposition that really counts

Skrivanic, Bell, Hardman and Carroll would seem the front runners from the reports of our man on the ground Barracuda

It's worth noting though that the swans recruitment group is completely separate from the academy. The recruiters deliberately have no allegiance to the academy to ensure they do not compromise the need to get the very best talent from the entire pool. For example it would be interesting to see where the swans sit on a player like Hardman who is 173cm. They already have Papley, Hayward, Florent and potentially K.Jack as small forwards plus others in NEAFL. Even if Hardman had a good Div 1 champs, would the swans have another spot for a small forward. I don't know the answer to this and am just using it as an example.

I still think Bell has the best chance of the swans drafting him. He is a good size and works hard.

Another factor to consider is the continuing trend towards increasing the draft age to 19. In the last week the coaches have all put their support behind increasing the draft age, and the under 18 championships are continuing to include 19 year olds. I have not looked at the allies, but of the 9 swans players in the squad 4 are 19 years old. If we look at this group Brown is a standout and overall the swans might be looking to draft him.

I saw this table on another forum, which gives some insight into how the players went in the championshipssummary.jpg

[Mug Punter]

It's worth noting though that the swans recruitment group is completely separate from the academy. The recruiters deliberately have no allegiance to the academy to ensure they do not compromise the need to get the very best talent from the entire pool. For example it would be interesting to see where the swans sit on a player like Hardman who is 173cm. They already have Papley, Hayward, Florent and potentially K.Jack as small forwards plus others in NEAFL. Even if Hardman had a good Div 1 champs, would the swans have another spot for a small forward. I don't know the answer to this and am just using it as an example.

I still think Bell has the best chance of the swans drafting him. He is a good size and works hard.

Another factor to consider is the continuing trend towards increasing the draft age to 19. In the last week the coaches have all put their support behind increasing the draft age, and the under 18 championships are continuing to include 19 year olds. I have not looked at the allies, but of the 9 swans players in the squad 4 are 19 years old. If we look at this group Brown is a standout and overall the swans might be looking to draft him.

I saw this table on another forum, which gives some insight into how the players went in the championships[ATTACH=CONFIG]1862[/ATTACH]

Thanks Barra, I have heard that too re the Swans recruitment but I am sure that the advantages they have in the long term reference checks etc, looking at the players for so long, that Academy kids do have a bit of an inside run all things being equal. Having said that, no way should we be handing spots out to the Swans list for charity as I suspect we may have done a bit with Hiscox and Abe. What you say re Hardman is really interesting, Papley is a 10 year player for the Swans IMO and the last two weeks have showed how much we missed him. Hayward is a slightly different type of player, Jack is close to the end of his career. I reckon we'd have a real good look at him

Those stats are interesting. Osborne and Brown top three in all stats with Osborne a tackling machine which surely is a big plus, Osborne is down at Manly which is your club is it not? How do you rate his chances?

[barracuda]

Thanks Barra, I have heard that too re the Swans recruitment but I am sure that the advantages they have in the long term reference checks etc, looking at the players for so long, that Academy kids do have a bit of an inside run all things being equal. Having said that, no way should we be handing spots out to the Swans list for charity as I suspect we may have done a bit with Hiscox and Abe. What you say re Hardman is really interesting, Papley is a 10 year player for the Swans IMO and the last two weeks have showed how much we missed him. Hayward is a slightly different type of player, Jack is close to the end of his career. I reckon we'd have a real good look at him

Those stats are interesting. Osborne and Brown top three in all stats with Osborne a tackling machine which surely is a big plus, Osborne is down at Manly which is your club is it not? How do you rate his chances?

Both the Manly boys are big tacklers: Osborne and Wicks! Jarrod Osborne has elite endurance and has really bulked up in the last six months. These attributes really helped him in the championships, similar to Brown. The 19 year olds have benefited from NEAFL games and seniors pre-season giving them a significant advantage over the 18 year olds.

As to Jarrod's draft chances I can't really comment. I guess if he has a great Allies campaign he will get in the frame. I think he might also need to show a bit more with the bigger bodies in the NEAFL.

[Mug Punter]

Both the Manly boys are big tacklers: Osborne and Wicks! Jarrod Osborne has elite endurance and has really bulked up in the last six months. These attributes really helped him in the championships, similar to Brown. The 19 year olds have benefited from NEAFL games and seniors pre-season giving them a significant advantage over the 18 year olds.

As to Jarrod's draft chances I can't really comment. I guess if he has a great Allies campaign he will get in the frame. I think he might also need to show a bit more with the bigger bodies in the NEAFL.

Good luck to both the Manly boys.

The performance of the Allies will be interesting to see. I think the Academy system is the best thing to happen to the game in Sydney ever but it also illustrates just how far behind the local comps and development was. Growing up playing football in Sydney I know I never got proper coaching on the basics and given I was pretty good athletically and generally at sport I am sure I would have been a much better player in a traditional state (then again maybe I'm deluded). But I do know that I played with and against kids when I was a junior that were absolutely talented enough to have a crack at VFL/AFL footy with the right coaching but even at Rep level it was prehistoric.

All the academy has really done is give the local boys a decent chance in my book but living in Sydney it is hard to comprehend the depth of junior football down in Melbourne (or senior football for that matter)

It would be like being a good junior rugby player in Melbourne, the best player at the age of 17 would probably be no better than every single kid that runs out for a GPS First 15 side. And so it was and to an extent still is in Sydney, the best kids think they are better than they are when if they went to a decent private football school in Melbourne they'd probably just be a decent player in the Assumption College Firsts. It's why the Wright kid goes down to Melbourne and finds to hard to get a kick for Oakleigh in the TAC. Not a criticism but being a big fish in a small pond, and to an extent the Academy kids still are, isn't really a great thing.

Not bagging Noah Wright at all but I see that as a kind of footballing cultural cringe, you know "my kid has to go to Melbourne because he's too good for the local comp". Each to their own but I would hope that really that is not necessary now but it sure would have been back in my day, I think you have addressed this and you feel that the environment the Swans provide, being within an AFL structure, is at least the equal of a TAC club environment. Certainly the National Championship Div 2 programme offers another level of elite football for those chosen for the Allies but I guess the big thing for kids sent to Melbourne is they also get to play elite school footy whereas the "throwbacks" from the Div 2 Championships now have to go back to SFL Under 19s which is still really poor by national levels.

Not sure where I am going with this rambling post but think what I am trying to say is that the Academies are a generational investment and whilst they are doing well, indeed very well in our case, the real benefits are still to be realised. And it is for that reason I get so angry when the likes of that fat grub David King start taking pot shots at it.

[barracuda]

Good luck to both the Manly boys.

The performance of the Allies will be interesting to see. I think the Academy system is the best thing to happen to the game in Sydney ever but it also illustrates just how far behind the local comps and development was. Growing up playing football in Sydney I know I never got proper coaching on the basics and given I was pretty good athletically and generally at sport I am sure I would have been a much better player in a traditional state (then again maybe I'm deluded). But I do know that I played with and against kids when I was a junior that were absolutely talented enough to have a crack at VFL/AFL footy with the right coaching but even at Rep level it was prehistoric.

All the academy has really done is give the local boys a decent chance in my book but living in Sydney it is hard to comprehend the depth of junior football down in Melbourne (or senior football for that matter)

It would be like being a good junior rugby player in Melbourne, the best player at the age of 17 would probably be no better than every single kid that runs out for a GPS First 15 side. And so it was and to an extent still is in Sydney, the best kids think they are better than they are when if they went to a decent private football school in Melbourne they'd probably just be a decent player in the Assumption College Firsts. It's why the Wright kid goes down to Melbourne and finds to hard to get a kick for Oakleigh in the TAC. Not a criticism but being a big fish in a small pond, and to an extent the Academy kids still are, isn't really a great thing.

Not bagging Noah Wright at all but I see that as a kind of footballing cultural cringe, you know "my kid has to go to Melbourne because he's too good for the local comp". Each to their own but I would hope that really that is not necessary now but it sure would have been back in my day, I think you have addressed this and you feel that the environment the Swans provide, being within an AFL structure, is at least the equal of a TAC club environment. Certainly the National Championship Div 2 programme offers another level of elite football for those chosen for the Allies but I guess the big thing for kids sent to Melbourne is they also get to play elite school footy whereas the "throwbacks" from the Div 2 Championships now have to go back to SFL Under 19s which is still really poor by national levels.

Not sure where I am going with this rambling post but think what I am trying to say is that the Academies are a generational investment and whilst they are doing well, indeed very well in our case, the real benefits are still to be realised. And it is for that reason I get so angry when the likes of that fat grub David King start taking pot shots at it.

Thanks Mug! I think a couple of other factors also impact Sydney kids. The first is the absence of footy from their schools and mates. In an AFL state you kick a footy before school, during and after. You constantly compete with your mates. In Sydney that doesn't happen. Paul Roos when he ran the Academy told the kids they needed to kick a footy 400 times a week to match the kids in the footy states.
Secondly the peer groups and schools are all centered around a first 15 not a first 18. This makes it a bit of a lonely existence for an elite afl kid playing a sport that no one cares about. All kids crave recognition and are influenced by their peers. I have seen many talented afl kids move to more popular sports over the years.
The Academy is a very important framework for these kids to anchor their love of footy, and to get the recognition. Over the last 5 years or more I have seen the academies reputation seeping into the community and there are now little kids who proudly wear their junior swans academy gear around.

I think there is however still a bit of a view that good footy players only come from traditional footy areas. That's why the GWS kids always seem to get a leg up. The allies squad again favours the GWS despite Sydney winning the comp in a clean sweep. It will be interesting when the squad is cut down to see who remains. For Sydney kids who are elite but struggle to break into the system the swans through the NDS provide a continuing lifeline. That now extends to Sydney Uni Neafl (putting aside the impact on Prems) and I could see it also flowing to Canberra in the Neafl who look like they could desperately do with some of the ex academy talent.

To be honest whether a sydney kid should go to Melbourne like Noah Wright is a very difficult equation. Firstly you have to be good enough or you are wasting your time. Secondly you have to realize you are throwing away the swans program, and the incredible level of training and experience. Not many 16/17 year olds would get to play and travel with a team like the swans reserves. Lastly you put at risk your HSC which is ultimately your future. At the end of the day if you are good enough and want it enough, you can make it via either program. I think via the swans you are more likely to be a 19 year old draftee (Ben Davis) or a rookie, whereas in Victoria you probably have a better chance to be drafted at 18. I am also a fan of raising the draft age to 19 to enable kids to finish their school education. Some of the swans academy boys have basically ditched school with the hope of getting drafted. This is not great and they should not feel they need to do that. Likewise there are other swans academy boys who are trying to get a good HSC grade and are compromising their draft year. They also should not need to do that.

[Mug Punter]

Thanks Mug! I think a couple of other factors also impact Sydney kids. The first is the absence of footy from their schools and mates. In an AFL state you kick a footy before school, during and after. You constantly compete with your mates. In Sydney that doesn't happen. Paul Roos when he ran the Academy told the kids they needed to kick a footy 400 times a week to match the kids in the footy states.
Secondly the peer groups and schools are all centered around a first 15 not a first 18. This makes it a bit of a lonely existence for an elite afl kid playing a sport that no one cares about. All kids crave recognition and are influenced by their peers. I have seen many talented afl kids move to more popular sports over the years.
The Academy is a very important framework for these kids to anchor their love of footy, and to get the recognition. Over the last 5 years or more I have seen the academies reputation seeping into the community and there are now little kids who proudly wear their junior swans academy gear around.

I think there is however still a bit of a view that good footy players only come from traditional footy areas. That's why the GWS kids always seem to get a leg up. The allies squad again favours the GWS despite Sydney winning the comp in a clean sweep. It will be interesting when the squad is cut down to see who remains. For Sydney kids who are elite but struggle to break into the system the swans through the NDS provide a continuing lifeline. That now extends to Sydney Uni Neafl (putting aside the impact on Prems) and I could see it also flowing to Canberra in the Neafl who look like they could desperately do with some of the ex academy talent.

To be honest whether a sydney kid should go to Melbourne like Noah Wright is a very difficult equation. Firstly you have to be good enough or you are wasting your time. Secondly you have to realize you are throwing away the swans program, and the incredible level of training and experience. Not many 16/17 year olds would get to play and travel with a team like the swans reserves. Lastly you put at risk your HSC which is ultimately your future. At the end of the day if you are good enough and want it enough, you can make it via either program. I think via the swans you are more likely to be a 19 year old draftee (Ben Davis) or a rookie, whereas in Victoria you probably have a better chance to be drafted at 18. I am also a fan of raising the draft age to 19 to enable kids to finish their school education. Some of the swans academy boys have basically ditched school with the hope of getting drafted. This is not great and they should not feel they need to do that. Likewise there are other swans academy boys who are trying to get a good HSC grade and are compromising their draft year. They also should not need to do that.

Cheers Barra, I am sure I speak for all of us on here when I say that your insights into the Academy and broader balanced commentary is really valued.

Let's hope that the Allies squad gets selected on merit though to be fair it must be hard to bring six squads into one and keep everyone happy. But surely the team that goes unbeaten should have the highest representation? The hard ones would be teams like NT, they may have four or five guns who deserve to be picked and will flourish amongst better players and who were held back by the lack of depth in their squads.

All your points are valid. The school and peer pressure is an interesting one. I used to play kick to kick at school but most schools would be touch footy. That stat from Roosy is interesting and probably on the money. I do think over time that will change, especially in the AFL hotspots in Sydney (North Shore, Eastern Suburbs and Northern Beaches). The breaking down of school barriers is also very important with the CAS and GPS schools just starting their programmes.

Agree re the relocating too and I fully support the raising of the draft age to 19. At the very least get the kids out in the real world for one year before they get their player manager performing their basic life skills.

The Sydney Uni NEAFL programme cops a fair bit of flak and I won't go there (too much). But I will say that the third pathway is very important however it is structured, maybe one day we'll have a fourth but I can't see any Sydney District club being able to afford that without a sugar daddy. Many people say that it should not be run by a club but as a rep style side but I will say that under no circumstances should the NSWAFL be let anywhere near running a NEAFL side. This is a mob that can barely get a draw out and has a multi generational reputation for incompetence not to mention being AFL stooges. I think Sydney Uni, with their college style sports programme are the obvious ones to run it. I think there are some issues how it impacts on the Prem Div comp and I hope they get resolved over time.

What is certain though is that the Sydney Uni programme is already benefitting massively from the NDS kids flowing through. I guess the program is that by 21 most AFL non listed kids with ambition to play at the top level will track there. What is not so ideal is that if you have 6 NDS kids a year going there that in 10 years Sydney Uni has the 60 best junior kids in Sydney that flow down the grades. Clubs like Manly spend so much time developing kids like Wicks and Osborne, I can understand they may go to Sydney Uni to play NEAFL but they should only be able to play NEAFL there. It's why the Sydney Uni NEAFL squad should be totally quarantined from the SFL rather than having Xav come down to Weldon and kick 13 goals in a canter.

PS - Apologies mods if this is going off topic

[Auntie.Gerald]

Interesting comment re the footy Barra

I coach football these days (soccer) and it is recommended 400 touches on the ball minimum per training session

[S.S. Bleeder]

Both the Manly boys are big tacklers: Osborne and Wicks! Jarrod Osborne has elite endurance and has really bulked up in the last six months. These attributes really helped him in the championships, similar to Brown. The 19 year olds have benefited from NEAFL games and seniors pre-season giving them a significant advantage over the 18 year olds.

As to Jarrod's draft chances I can't really comment. I guess if he has a great Allies campaign he will get in the frame. I think he might also need to show a bit more with the bigger bodies in the NEAFL.

Great Intel. Barra. What are Osborne and Wicks like in regards to speed and foot skills. We are lacking in those departments so might sway towards players with those attributes.

[707]

Was starting to like the prospect of Pick 1, but alas our recent resurgence has seen us slip down the order to pick 7 and destined to drift further. Nowhere near as much fun come trade week :-(

[waswan]

Glad the hysteria around Jones or Reids 6-700k a year has died for at least a week

[707]

Glad the hysteria around Jones or Reids 6-700k a year has died for at least a week

Until the media cycle is a bit quiet and they dredge it up again - "Swans pair still not re-signing"

- - - Updated - - -

Glad the hysteria around Jones or Reids 6-700k a year has died for at least a week

Until the media cycle is a bit quiet and they dredge it up again - "Swans pair still not re-signing"

[Ludwig]

What I hate about the Melbourne media as how they think raiding the northern clubs is a birthright. The current chatter is about how much is Schache worth when he gets plucked from Brisbane, and Garry Lyon said yesterday that some Melbourne club MUST get Steven May off GC. No wonder the northern clubs are struggling when they are treated like feeder clubs for the Vic clubs.

- - - Updated - - -

What I hate about the Melbourne media as how they think raiding the northern clubs is a birthright. The current chatter is about how much is Schache worth when he gets plucked from Brisbane, and Garry Lyon said yesterday that some Melbourne club MUST get Steven May off GC. No wonder the northern clubs are struggling when they are treated like feeder clubs for the Vic clubs.

[707]

That rarest of draft commodities the KPF, former number 2 pick Josh Schache might request a trade to a Melbourne club at the end of the season.

How much were Brisbane dudded by the southern clubs in trade negotiations when they last had go homers? They were dudded a heap. So what do Melbourne clubs offer this time for a number 2 draft pick? Watch them try it all again.

The comp is so skewed towards Vic clubs it's not funny.

- - - Updated - - -

That rarest of draft commodities the KPF, former number 2 pick Josh Schache might request a trade to a Melbourne club at the end of the season.

How much were Brisbane dudded by the southern clubs in trade negotiations when they last had go homers? They were dudded a heap. So what do Melbourne clubs offer this time for a number 2 draft pick? Watch them try it all again.

The comp is so skewed towards Vic clubs it's not funny.

[Blood Fever]

[QUOTE=Ludwig;725687]What I hate about the Melbourne media as how they think raiding the northern clubs is a birthright. The current chatter is about how much is Schache worth when he gets plucked from Brisbane, and Garry Lyon said yesterday that some Melbourne club MUST get Steven May off GC. No wonder the northern clubs are struggling when they are treated like feeder clubs for the Vic clubs.

i'm an old South supporter who has lived in Melbourne all my life. It is probably only because I now follow a team based in Sydney that I see clearly how Melbourne centric the comp is. Most of media have a very blinkered view and trying to point this out to other Victorians is like beating your head against a door. One of my biggest gripes is that the GF is played at the MCG usually against a team that plays home games there. We finished top of the ladder in 2014 and 2016 and played teams virtually on their home ground.Same with West Coast in 2015. Farcical situation for a national comp. Whenever I bring that up down here, it doesn't compute. And they say Americans are insular. I think the agreement runs out in 2035! Very annoying.

[Mug Punter]

Glad the hysteria around Jones or Reids 6-700k a year has died for at least a week

Whether it has died down in the news cycle is irrelevant.

The money being quoted ($600K for Jones and Reid $800K) is right on the money for mine and even then it may not be enough. You have the Saints, St Kilda, North and Carlton planning for this for years and they have a couple of million to play with.

Whatever we offer they will be able to trump. We offer $600K a year, one of them will match it with a $750K sign on fee thrown in as a sweetener.

Ultimately at the moment a player is worth whatever someone will pay. Schache being quoted at $700K a season and likely to get it. Apart from it just being heartbreaking for the Lions that is a simply ridiculous number to pay.

All we can do is get close to the market value, which I think we will, but ultimately if either of these guys is motivated significantly by money then they're gone. Personally I think we'll more than likely keep Reid and I think Jones is 50/50 at best and again if they are not signed up by the end of June then I think we should prepare for the worst.

Whatever happens, we'll be OK. If we were to lose Jones I'd expect a top ten pick as compo and the abaility to again go to the draft and get a couple of first round midfielders will soften the blow somewhat. Having said that I'll be a lot more gutted than when Tom left.