2017 trading, drafting, list management

[AnnieH]

Is Zak Jones over-rated? I'm going to go against the grain here. He's a model for inconsistency and turns the ball over too many times. I can only remember him being good for a couple of games early on this season, then everyone jumped on his bandwagon. Just re-signed but I'd put him on the trade table.

Hanners had 20 touches last game with ONE effective disposal.
At least Jones has ruthless (although he left it in the locker room at the SCG, along with the rest of them).

[Nico]

Is Zak Jones over-rated? I'm going to go against the grain here. He's a model for inconsistency and turns the ball over too many times. I can only remember him being good for a couple of games early on this season, then everyone jumped on his bandwagon. Just re-signed but I'd put him on the trade table.

To me Jones should go into the mid field. The above talk about trading for outside run is a bit of not seeing the wood for the trees. We have a hard free running player in our midst. I have no doubt that his hardness at centre clearances would be an asset. Does he have the tank to go all day? After 50 games he should be approaching that. IIRC his brother started off very very much like him and seemingly had a lot of turnovers. At the time I thought this bloke gets it a lot but butchers it. Also by putting Mills in the guts next year we get more run through the mid field. Parker is a tough one I recall him being interviewed after a game at the G a couple of years ago and he admitted he had to work out how to be a better player there. Hanners is fine. He has carried an injury all year so lets hope with a good recovery he gets back to his finest.

I went in hard after the game on some players, and I am not retracting that, but on reflection as a collective we got caught out on inexperience, injuries caught up with us and we hit the wall.

[KTigers]

Sure, Jones is erratic. But you'd still want him in the team. These guys that run with the ball all of the time, you just have to take the
good with the bad. Most of them get caught with it a bit. Unfortunately Zac is not Nathan Wilson at this point. Plus he just signed him
up for another two years. I like the idea of Parker forward sometimes, he is a hell of a mark, and completely fearless. Him sitting in
the pocket next to Buddy last Friday night may have created a different vibe for the Cats defenders. It worked for GWS the other
night, the Eagles defenders were lost between worrying about Patton or Steve Johnson/Toby Greene.

[tlock]

I'd rather have Aliir replace Jones, much more elusive, more composure and less prone to error.

[Ludwig]

I figure we have 8 players who can legitimately play on the ball: Kennedy, Parker, Hannebery, Jack, Heeney, Jones, Hewett and Mills. We have a few others that can also take a turn. Lloyd is actually quite good on ball but seems better where he is now. That's a pretty solid group and I would expect that we will increase the on ball rotations as time goes on. We need to focus on filling in the outside positions with pace and kicking skills.

We have a solid start in that regard and hopefully add a couple more this draft period. I like the group of players coming through the reserves at present. Not everyone will make it, but chances are that a fair few will.

It should be a quiet draft and trade period for us this year, but we have a fair few coming out of contract next year and expect 2018 to see more list turnover than this one.

[Nico]

Sure, Jones is erratic. But you'd still want him in the team. These guys that run with the ball all of the time, you just have to take the
good with the bad. Most of them get caught with it a bit. Unfortunately Zac is not Nathan Wilson at this point. Plus he just signed him
up for another two years. I like the idea of Parker forward sometimes, he is a hell of a mark, and completely fearless. Him sitting in
the pocket next to Buddy last Friday night may have created a different vibe for the Cats defenders. It worked for GWS the other
night, the Eagles defenders were lost between worrying about Patton or Steve Johnson/Toby Greene.

Agree KT. There is no way Parker gets left out of the team but put him up forward at the start of games at the G. Give him something different to help deal with his MCG demons. Amazing how he plays well everywhere but the MCG. Sides are going to play the lead up game against us from now, so the coaches are going to have to be a lot more innovative with the list.

Nathan Jones was on SEN on Tuesday and said Zac loves it in Sydney. Zac has only played 50 games and came into the side pretty quickly into his career. Put him in the guts and into the hurly burly of the game, and you will see the "silly" side of his game disappear.

[Nico]

I figure we have 8 players who can legitimately play on the ball: Kennedy, Parker, Hannebery, Jack, Heeney, Jones, Hewett and Mills. We have a few others that can also take a turn. Lloyd is actually quite good on ball but seems better where he is now. That's a pretty solid group and I would expect that we will increase the on ball rotations as time goes on. We need to focus on filling in the outside positions with pace and kicking skills.

We have a solid start in that regard and hopefully add a couple more this draft period. I like the group of players coming through the reserves at present. Not everyone will make it, but chances are that a fair few will.

It should be a quiet draft and trade period for us this year, but we have a fair few coming out of contract next year and expect 2018 to see more list turnover than this one.

Agreed Ludwig but we need genuine improvement from a few of the lesser experienced players. We have talked about Jones but a couple more need mention.
Newman; he started his senior career well with precise kicking but for some reason he became way too cute and at times slaughtered his delivery. Most of the time he gets in the right place to receive a handball so plays his role well. Just get the disposal right. Last week when he went back he got knocked off the ball way to easy. Unless he bulks up quickly I can only see his role being a wingman.
Hewett; George now gets where the ball is at but boy his kicking leaves a lot to be desired. He plays back yard footy; that is he kicks around corners which is very low efficiency. I don't get why when he is running in a straight line, in the clear, he turns half side on and kicks a screw kick. Kick straight and through it George. And he needs to learn to get his handball off at the first option rather than taking on the player. Heeney does exactly the same and they both get pinged. When I see that I think individual footy rather than team footy.

[sprite]

I figure we have 8 players who can legitimately play on the ball: Kennedy, Parker, Hannebery, Jack, Heeney, Jones, Hewett and Mills. We have a few others that can also take a turn. Lloyd is actually quite good on ball but seems better where he is now. That's a pretty solid group and I would expect that we will increase the on ball rotations as time goes on. We need to focus on filling in the outside positions with pace and kicking skills.

We have a solid start in that regard and hopefully add a couple more this draft period. I like the group of players coming through the reserves at present. Not everyone will make it, but chances are that a fair few will.

It should be a quiet draft and trade period for us this year, but we have a fair few coming out of contract next year and expect 2018 to see more list turnover than this one.

I agree with most of your views here.

My exception is Mills, I see him taking the McVeigh role of being the leader in the back half, with occasional runs in the middle.

Allir can be added to the mix in the middle, I would really like him to develop into our next Goodes ( on the proviso we can get pick up or develop another KDP).

[sprite]

Agreed Ludwig but we need genuine improvement from a few of the lesser experienced players. We have talked about Jones but a couple more need mention.
Newman; he started his senior career well with precise kicking but for some reason he became way too cute and at times slaughtered his delivery. Most of the time he gets in the right place to receive a handball so plays his role well. Just get the disposal right. Last week when he went back he got knocked off the ball way to easy. Unless he bulks up quickly I can only see his role being a wingman.
Hewett; George now gets where the ball is at but boy his kicking leaves a lot to be desired. He plays back yard footy; that is he kicks around corners which is very low efficiency. I don't get why when he is running in a straight line, in the clear, he turns half side on and kicks a screw kick. Kick straight and through it George. And he needs to learn to get his handball off at the first option rather than taking on the player. Heeney does exactly the same and they both get pinged. When I see that I think individual footy rather than team footy.

With George, I'm hoping it was a second year thing and he analyses his performance this year. Hopefully he eliminates these problems over the summer.

Agree on Heeney, he far too often went for the big mark instead of staying down to crumb the ball. Perhaps a move into the centre will reduce this problem as he will be delivering instead of receiving.

[KTigers]

Whenever I see what runner-kickers like Wilson from GWS can do (hitting guys on the run 65M away diagonally across the field) and
thinking back to 2012 when our best runner-kickers Malceski and Jetta were at the peak of their powers I think this is the type of
player we need to be trying to develop. These guys can be so damaging offensively, and are a nightmare to coach against because they
can make an entire line of defence redundant in the space of about five seconds. There are very few holes in our team (best forward
in the game, great midfield, most miserly defence). This type of player would be such a bonus.

[bloodspirit]

Contracts only mean so much. If the club wants another player desperately enough they will trade for them using players who are contracted or not. Players know this, they know it's a business there not like supporters. If Aliir puts in another year like this year I wouldn't guarantee him a contract. I will say though I'd be surprised if he put in a year the same as this year. They go for the same reason Lockett went to Sydney & Judd to Carlton, money or because they are moved on by the club. Sport is a business. Trading Hannebery, Rohan or Aliir is not selling the farm it's enhancing your kingdom. Blakey will be good but like I said Lukosious is the real deal. Would I rather draft a game breaking key forward or a good forward who plays a role? I'd take a a game breaking forward in Lukosious every day every month of every year. But I'm not choosing one or the other I'm talking about getting a game breaking match winning forward and also having a player that would be even better as a 2nd key forward. If you have the time watch the under 18 championship games as they give you a better indication as players in the all star game are encouraged to show more flair so it's a lot less pressure. It's why I liked Florent in that game he still played his game without trying to go overboard.

Agree we should try n move up the order for next year.

Boddo, I like your logic. I agree it is worth considering giving up a top shelf player (e.g. Hanners + Rohan/Aliir) to get a top shelf player (Lukosius - I'm taking your word for him being a champion, I know nothing about him).

However, I think you're wrong about how normal and realistic it would be to move on a player like Hanners. What examples can you give where top flight players who are in good form and under contract get traded against their wishes? Sure you get examples where such a player is not in good form (like, say, Stringer this year or even someone like Cloke) because they know they really are on the outer. But when you're talking about Hanners (or Parker or whoever) it's a different situation. He (they) is one of our best players and in no danger whatsoever of getting dropped to the Reserves. Some argument about 'different structures' is still not going to lead to them being dropped. Apart from not liking the idea of even trying to push someone like Hanners who bleeds red and white out of the club while he is contracted and against his wishes, the only way it could become a possibility is if the suitor club is willing to pay him much more or somehow otherwise can offer him something that makes it an appealing option so he will want to go. [There are other scenarios e.g. personal or family crisis; total loss of form etc but assuming something unforeseen doesn't turn up.]

Lastly, I suspect you're underestimating Ludwig if you're thinking he just wants to hold on to our players. Ludwig has shown himself to be very open to radical/creative/left-field solutions where he can see a point to it.

[Ludwig]

Agreed Ludwig but we need genuine improvement from a few of the lesser experienced players. We have talked about Jones but a couple more need mention.
Newman; he started his senior career well with precise kicking but for some reason he became way too cute and at times slaughtered his delivery. Most of the time he gets in the right place to receive a handball so plays his role well. Just get the disposal right. Last week when he went back he got knocked off the ball way to easy. Unless he bulks up quickly I can only see his role being a wingman.
Hewett; George now gets where the ball is at but boy his kicking leaves a lot to be desired. He plays back yard footy; that is he kicks around corners which is very low efficiency. I don't get why when he is running in a straight line, in the clear, he turns half side on and kicks a screw kick. Kick straight and through it George. And he needs to learn to get his handball off at the first option rather than taking on the player. Heeney does exactly the same and they both get pinged. When I see that I think individual footy rather than team footy.

Some good points here. It was sad for me to see Newman's game fall away toward the end of the season since I backed him in early and he started so well. He's got a kicking style like Matt Suckling. I guess it works for him. I hope he can get back to his best next year and become a solid consistent player. He's still quite inexperienced at AFL level.

Zak Jones is another who seemed to fall away after he signed his new contract. Hard to figure out why.

Hewett is a good kick on both sides. I don't know if he's trying new things that work in training but don't come off as well in real games or what it is. Perhaps it's that he is now disposing the ball in more pressured situations as he gets more midfield time. I feel his basics are strong and he will continue to grow as a player.

Although I back Aliir for senior footy, we will see plenty to complain about with his game. He often loses concentration and fumbles the ball. I worry more about this than his defensive work. With ball in hand, he makes good decisions and is an excellent kick. We really need our development team to get his game in tip top shape.

. . . . . . .

Re: Lukosius. The feeling is that even as a 17 yo he would go #1 this year. It's going to be difficult to pry the #1 pick next year from whoever has it. In fact, that may be the case for the first handful of picks, as the draft is looking very good at the top. Any team hoping to get Lukosius and needing to trade for the pick will likely have to exchange another top 10 pick and a very good player. We can dream on, but I don't see us being in the running.

[Boddo]

Boddo, I like your logic. I agree it is worth considering giving up a top shelf player (e.g. Hanners + Rohan/Aliir) to get a top shelf player (Lukosius - I'm taking your word for him being a champion, I know nothing about him).

However, I think you're wrong about how normal and realistic it would be to move on a player like Hanners. What examples can you give where top flight players who are in good form and under contract get traded against their wishes? Sure you get examples where such a player is not in good form (like, say, Stringer this year or even someone like Cloke) because they know they really are on the outer. But when you're talking about Hanners (or Parker or whoever) it's a different situation. He (they) is one of our best players and in no danger whatsoever of getting dropped to the Reserves. Some argument about 'different structures' is still not going to lead to them being dropped. Apart from not liking the idea of even trying to push someone like Hanners who bleeds red and white out of the club while he is contracted and against his wishes, the only way it could become a possibility is if the suitor club is willing to pay him much more or somehow otherwise can offer him something that makes it an appealing option so he will want to go. [There are other scenarios e.g. personal or family crisis; total loss of form etc but assuming something unforeseen doesn't turn up.]

Lastly, I suspect you're underestimating Ludwig if you're thinking he just wants to hold on to our players. Ludwig has shown himself to be very open to radical/creative/left-field solutions where he can see a point to it.

Disagree with most of what you said. It's pretty hard to have a serious conversation with you in regards to attempting to draft Lukosious when you don't even know who he is. Read a forum, watch a game of his or look at a phantom draft. Made his senior sanfl debut in a prelim on the weekend n kicked 4. Just about anyone who takes half an interest recruiting would know who he is.

[bloodspirit]

It's worth thinking about who we can poach, especially to bolster our outside run and rebound. Is there anyone speedy and skilful who might be gettable? I just ran my eyes over the Suns and Giants lists. I wonder what we'd have to give up to get Jack Martin? Perhaps more achievable would be to have another crack at Isaac Cumming who we bid on at last year's draft - he hasn't been extended at GWS yet. (Rohan for Cumming?) Ditto for Nathan Wilson. Overall the Giants have done a great job of locking down their list. By re-signing Whitfield and Kelly they will have to be prepared to give up Devon Smith but they'll get something decent back for him. Likewise if they trade Matt Kennedy they'll get something back. The Giants have an embarrassment of riches with Wilson, Williams and Shaw on top of their midfielders like Scully, Shiel, Whitfield and Kelly. All of those guys have top shelf pace and skill. Anyway, more thought needs to go into who we can target to give us speedy rebound (not necessarily from the Giants).

However, our list has some prospects. Newman is very skilful and will become more consistent at the level. Florent and Hayward are both quick and skilful and Florent in particular can one day move into the midfield. Then there are players like Murray, COR, Edwards, who may or may not make it but who are quick and hopefully at least one of them can make it.

The other type of player we might be targeting could be another KPD (despite having quite a number on our list already and subject to if any are delisted: Reg, Aliir, Melican, Talia, AJ, Maibaum). Finlayson from the Giants hasn't had much opportunity at the Giants and is 196 cm and will turn 22 years old before next season begins and is only contracted until next year at this stage. Ludwig has suggested this more than once before (although not recently that I've noticed).

- - - Updated - - -

Disagree with most of what you said. It's pretty hard to have a serious conversation with you in regards to attempting to draft Lukosious when you don't even know who he is. Read a forum, watch a game of his or look at a phantom draft. Made his senior sanfl debut in a prelim on the weekend n kicked 4. Just about anyone who takes half an interest recruiting would know who he is.

None of my points had anything to do with Lukosius in particular. As I said, I'm happy to take your word for his ability - so there's nothing to discuss on that front.

[AnnieH]

Zak Jones is another who seemed to fall away after he signed his new contract. Hard to figure out why.

Don't know.
I remember when Barry Hall signed a million dollar contract and then spent the next four years kicking behinds.
It must be mental.